LIVE RECORDING: Finding agency and building bridges in challenging times

So, there's a first: after years of zoom recording we had our very first LIVE recording in a room full of people. And not just any people, but a wonderful crowd of activists, researchers and others working to tackle inequalities and keen to 'do things differently'. We were at the Politics of Inequality Conference at the London School of Economics looking at just these topics featuring in this episode: finding agency, roles and building bridges for real meaningful change.

We had the most amazing conversation with two people I admire greatly for their vision, clarity of thought and commitment to equity across everything we do: Lyla Adwan-Kamara and Philippa Mullins.

 

Together we explore: 𝗜𝗻 𝗮 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝗰𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗶𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗳𝗹𝗶𝗰𝘁, 𝗵𝗼𝘄 𝗰𝗮𝗻 𝘄𝗲 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗰𝘆 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸 𝘁𝗼𝗴𝗲𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗶𝗻 𝘄𝗮𝘆𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗯𝘂𝘁𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗮 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗷𝘂𝘀𝘁, 𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗲𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗹𝗱?

 Lyla is a Ghana-based Palestinian-Irish mental health and disability rights activist, leader and co Atlantic Fellow. Philippa is a researcher and educator in disability and resistance studies that has worked across UK, Russia and Armenia. They share incredible insights from their personal lives, practice ánd theory that hit home and show a level of reflection, care and commitment to equity that I believe is rare.

We talk about working from a place of hurt and joy, how to navigate these challenging times whilst recognizing the injustices we see are not new, what it means to stand in solidarity and address inequalities in our everyday life, work and the institutions we are a part of. We hear about the importance of rest and kindness, understanding and honoring our values whilst recognizing fluidity and mess, and - of course - being in community.

We wish for everyone to hear this (and will regularly go back to this episode ourselves). So please grab a coffee or tea and listen in on the conversation!

Supported by the Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity Programme.

 

References coming up in the conversation: 

Tuck and Yang - Paris I Proof  

bell hooks - Teaching to Transgress: Education as the Practice of Freedom 

Dionne Brand – “One enters a room and history follows; one enters a room and history precedes. [...] How do I know this? Only by self-observation, only by looking. Only by feeling. Only by being a part, sitting in the room with history.” From:  Brand, D. (2001). A Map to the Door of No Return: Notes to Belonging. Doubleday Canada

Esther Arma - Emotional Justice: A Roadmap for Racial Healing | Penguin Random House South Africa 

Philippa’s essay: Epistemic injustice and unwellness in the classroom: Creating knowledge like we matter 

Mimi Khúc - on 'a pedagogy of unwellness—the recognition that we are all differentially unwell' - dear elia, Duke University Press

Lyla's Memory Stitches - more information and pictures in this blog post  

Atlantic Fellows for Social and Economic Equity (AFSEE) | https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/   

Politics of Inequality conference and programme  - https://www.lse.ac.uk/International-Inequalities/Research/Politics-of-Inequality 

More about Lyla: https://afsee.atlanticfellows.lse.ac.uk/en-gb/fellows/2023/lyla-adwan-kamara 

More about Philippa: https://www.lse.ac.uk/International-Inequalities/People/Philippa-Mullins/Philippa-Mullins

 

TRANSCRIPT

Barbara: So, welcome to the People vs Inequality podcast. This podcast is a space to reflect and learn with change-makers on how to tackle inequality by diving into the choices they make and the obstacles they face, but also their hopes and dreams for making real change happen.

And I'm very honored to be here. This is a very special episode because today we're live from LSE in London, the politics of inequality conference with a room full of people –  activists, academics, others – that are working to understand and resist inequalities. And we've had two days of learning and engagements and connections on what it means to do this work and what it means to do this work in this moment in time, and two of them will join me in this conversation, where we'll learn more about their work and where they find agency and how they feel about working across spaces, something that has come up also in this conference and that I think is particularly relevant,-is always important, but particularly relevant in the moment in this moment in time.

So, first we have Lyla Adwan Kamara. She's a Ghana-based Palestinian Irish mental health and disability rights activist that has led organizations and programs across the UK, Kenya, and Ghana. She is also a fellow for social and economic equity, as am I. And she did an amazing project using creative approaches to explore well-being and burnout in the activist space that we will hear more about, I hope. She's also active in the Atlantic Fellows for Palestine group, where I've come to know her as someone who doesn't shy away from speaking out and with great clarity on what she feels is needed, which is one of the reasons I think it's also really great to have her here today.

We also have Philippa Mullins, who's a researcher and educator who works primarily in disability and resistance studies. She has worked across Russia, Armenia, UK, and what I find really striking about her, and I know there's many people in the room, but some of the work that I've read about you really speaks to this, is you care about equity in knowledge production across both research and teaching. This has made me very curious to learn more and hear more as well.

Both of you work in the disability justice space, amongst others. And we'll also hear a bit more about how you're actually starting to collaborate. So that's a nice entry point for the conversation as well.

So welcome Lyla and Philippa. It's really great to have you here and that you've taken up this invite, with no pressure [smiles], to join me in this conversation. So, what we like to do on the podcast is always to start a little bit with hearing about the people that we're speaking to, about what they're doing, maybe how they arrived to what they're doing today.

Lyla: I think we're both a bit nervous.  So, we're looking at each other going, who's going first [laughs]?

Philippa: [laughs] Okay, I'll do it!

Thanks so much, Barbara. Thanks for having me. Hi, everyone. Thanks for being here and listening again.

So, the question was how I came to do what I do, why I do it, right? And I think that there's so many ways to approach that question. I mean, why I do what I do is because I can because I'm supported by so many people that came before me that brought me to this place. I'm supported by a lot of privilege that brought me to this place.

So maybe the other question is why I want to do what I do and that in terms of working in disability came out of family experience with disability. And I think that in terms of positioning myself and I'm being recorded and thinking through how I present that story and what I share. We've had a lot of these conversations around what the limits are and how we do it in a way that doesn't force trauma telling and doesn't force stories of pain.

So I'm thinking here of Tuck and Yang in particular who have written a lot about refusing research and refusing to kind of show blood, to show pain. That's how they talk about it. So, I'll just say family experience, but in terms of why I do what I do, I think a quote that speaks to me comes from bell hooks, and she is talking in Teaching to Transgress: Education as a Practice of Freedom about how she came to theory.

And I'm paraphrasing, but she says that she came to theory because she was hurting. And I think that's something that stands behind and animates what I do and how I do it. Not just theory, but learning, thinking, reading, engaging with people because of hurt, because of seeing something that I found unjust and trying to understand why, and then seeing bits of answers in what I was reading and wanting to think more and complete those answers.

So, I think it comes from a place of experience of injustice. But I don't just want to focus on pain and essentialise to pain. I think it also comes from a place of love. I think those two go together. So, maybe that's why I do what I do [laughs].

Barbara: Thank you so much.

Philippa: Thank you.

Barbara: Maybe to over to you, Lyla. Could you share a little bit more about who you are and what you do and why?

Lyla: Yeah, thank you. I mean, I just wanna respond to Philippa, like I just found listening to you that so much of that resonated. It was really profound. So, thank you for sharing that.

You know, I have really reflected on, you know, the past year has been such a journey for me. And it's really interesting, even in the last sort of two or three months, I keep changing and learning and building on everything that I've kind of done before.

And somebody gave me this book, it's called Emotional Justice. And I think sometimes you find a book or a paper or a film or piece of music and, you know, there's just this synergy. It just meets you at this moment in time when you're really ready for it. And I just want to briefly read from this because it really spoke to me in terms of who I am and what I think and it says that, ‘Systems are built by people, sustained by people and dismantled by people. That is our work, the dismantling. That dismantling is where the racial reckoning, racial repair, and racial healing happen. We are the dismantlers we've been waiting for.’

And I have it now even reading it out loud, right? I had this full body tingle and I jumped up from the sofa and I ran to the other room to my husband and I said, ‘This, this, this is what I've been talking about! This is what I've been trying to say and I couldn't say it and I didn't know how to say it.’ And, you know, that, that is exactly what I've been trying to articulate and think about over a period of years, but in particular in the last 12 to 13 months. So, I think that for me that was just a really important moment.

And because you were kind enough to share the questions in advance, I've been reflecting a lot about, why am I the way that I am? You know, like everybody, we are all made up of so many things, our family background, our cultural background, our experiences in life. But there's something that I've really been thinking of, and it's this concept of sumud, which is like typically translated as steadfastness, but it is like a Palestinian political-cultural concept.

It's like very, very specific. And it really comes from this sense of resistance to colonialization, this refusal to leave your land, this refusal to give up and, and a kind of holding on. And it's very much a sort of concept about resistance and defiance, but it can be a very quiet resistance rooted in very everyday things. And even for example, like I brought along my sewing and that is like traditional sewing and that is about that traditional everyday slow resistance, you can't do that fast. (8,40)

But then there's also this issue that if a key part of this concept, if a key part of, you know, sumud is about, you know, being on the land and being part of the land, how can I, how can I be that? How can that be me? When I'm not there, when I'm outside, right? And I attended this webinar. This is why I was saying that just in the past couple of months there has been such a shift for me. And, you know, and I kind of asked this question in a webinar and the presenter, you know, came on mic and replied and they said, you know, ‘Honey, you're not an immigrant, you’re not a refugee. You're in exile.’ And, and that really was another one of those moments that really shaped for me this understanding of who I am and where I come from and what it is that sits behind me and shapes me. And a lot of it, I didn't even know consciously. So, really these are, you know, these themes of dismantling, these themes of change-making, enduring, resisting in everyday ways, but also this theme of being in exile and being outside and shut out, you know, that is where there's this kind of connection between my being but also the work that I do, because when you're working in like disability, a lot of these themes also arise in very concrete ways that kind of mirror that experience. And so, this really helped me to make sense of, you know, myself and why I do the work that I do.

Barbara: Thank you so much, Lyla, and, actually, both of you because it is a hard question. And at the same time, I feel it's important to listen to each other, understanding what drives people really helps in that process. And I also think in times when, when there is great despair and when things are difficult, at least I find it helpful to go back to, you know, why I do what I do and what drives it. So that's why I always find this an important, kind of, starting point.

So, I'd be curious if you'd like to share a bit about your kind of journey also, maybe starting with you, Lyla, kind of professional journey and some of the recent work and insights you've gained from that.

Lyla: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really interesting because I, I kind of got into disability work almost by chance. And, but then as soon as I was in that space, there's a film somewhere on YouTube where we talk about like 10-year anniversary of the organization I was in and I sort of talk about how for the first year, you know, my jaw was practically on the floor going, what on earth is this?

I had no idea. That, you know, in the UK, that disabled people were so oppressed and I sort of felt very much that it was, you know, a civil rights issue and so that really galvanized me. But what I also sort of saw and experienced through that work was just how difficult it is to be in those spaces, how draining and, and particularly when you're kind of just working with people who have this long history of oppression and trauma and everybody trying to work together, but then also what you often find is that, you know, people can really express their trauma in quite different ways and often have very competing needs. And what I really experienced through that role was just a high level of burnout, not just me, but also my colleagues, the entire sector, basically, like everyone's completely knackered.

And so I stepped away from that work for a little while. I left the country. I mean, it was a bit dramatic [laughes]. I had to leave the country to go do something else. But, but that was also in disability and mental health. And so it was then experiencing that from a very different perspective. So, you know, working in Ghana versus the UK, there are lots of parallels, but there are also some really interesting differences.

And then eventually I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to do this fellowship with AFSEE and to really have that space and opportunity to go back and reflect and look at this issue of burnout and well-being among disability activists and, sort of, realizing that there's been actually plenty of research on burnout among social justice spaces and racial justice and all of this, but not on disability activists.

Why? Maybe, maybe they don't believe we can be activists. I don't know, but, you know, we are. So, it felt really important to try and fill that gap and to really start not to come to a place of answers, but to start to understand, you know, what exactly is the issue, what is the scale of the issue.

And so I had this question all the time of how are they able to carry on? What is the magic ingredient that they have that I didn't or, you know,- and then I learned there isn't a magic ingredient.

Barbara: I was gonna ask.

Lyla: No, no, there isn't! If there was, I would've bottled it. And [laughs], you know, so capitalized it and [laughs], so yeah. So, this was kind of the exploration and, and then we did the project really looking at how people are experiencing their activism and, just building on what, Philippa, you were saying earlier that, of course, a lot of it comes from a place of pain, it comes from a place of being oppressed, but also people were finding so much joy in doing that work together.

Despite what they're experiencing every day, horrible experiences and deaths even and, you know, but just that sense of togetherness and, yeah, not even a sense of achievement, because there isn't any, right? It's just a terrible, terrible grind with things going backwards all the time,  but that sense of being together, of having a voice, sharing your voice, I mean, it was just so important and it meant so much.

Barbara: Thank you for that. Philippa, I see you nodding and something resonated with you a lot. Maybe start with what resonated and then I have a question about the classroom after.

Philippa: I think this is really difficult. This is a really hard conversation because of everything that our work gets connected with and bound up with, because there is joy, but because there's pain. And because we care. And I think that also means that we need to engage in different ways in different times and to accept different engagement from different people at different times, right?

And I think that's kind of important for how we interact with each other, with this trauma-informed awareness of where people are and might be, including the fact that trauma sometimes is expressed in really hard ways. Um, so I think a lot of that was resonating.

And I think that one of the things is sometimes, and that's why there's burnout, is putting yourself in between the person and the structure that's hurting them. And I think that that's a resistant position that you can do in terms of disability activism, but also in terms of teaching or working in a university. Because all too often, I see the university as inflicting great pain and suffering on the people within it. And I see a lot of suffering with the students that I'm working with or have worked with. And so this is again about using my position. I can do something and I can put myself between people and oppressive structures.

Barbara: Thank you both. Yeah, Philippa, you talk about the classroom and I was explaining to you, I read your essay on unwellness and teaching and it's one of the questions I have for you today, and you know that, is around, you know, this moment in time and what you do, how do you [00:23:30] navigate that for yourself as well as your goals and responsibility towards others. Could you share a bit more about what you try to do in the classroom? That tries to address this unwellness and harm going on.

Philippa: it's about coming into the room and already being surrounded by history, putting yourself into [00:25:00] conversation with that history, and being very aware in the classroom that, and outside the classroom, I mean, it's not a space that exists outside of any context, but being very aware of the histories, the context. The joy, suffering, pain, knowledge that everyone brings with them into that space. Um, and we've spoken a lot about temporality and trauma, and I think that the thing with trauma that I've seen with a lot of the students I'm working with is that trauma creates a rupture in time, even intergenerationally.

That's the thing with trauma, it's always present, right? There's no past with trauma. And until you feel some resolution for yourself, it's going to be present.

And I think that it's really part of the work, as in, it is the work. It's not an add on. Like you were saying, Lyla. It is the work to spend some time putting yourself into community with the people that you are learning alongside, because otherwise it's not going to work. And, especially, I've had the privilege to be teaching on social justice.

I would say that this is true for whatever you're working on, but when you're teaching on social justice, you are very head on engaged with these issues. So if you think you can just week one, start talking about whatever quote unquote content without doing the relationship building and doing the work. That's not going to happen. So, it's not a waste of time. It's integral to the work, and it's integral to being in a position to be able to learn, to be able to make yourself vulnerable, to listen and be moved by other people, which I think is so important in the classroom, and to be able to take and kind of agree together on a learning and change perspective.

Because people are going to hurt me in the classroom, right? They're going to say things that I think are ableist, or I think are stigmatizing, or I think are discriminatory, and I'm going to hurt other people too. So how are we going to respond to that? How are we going to be able to move through that? And one of the things is accepting and being open to moving and changing from the knowledge you're taking on from other people. So if we've not discussed that and gone through that, then we can't learn together. We're just going to all hurt each other, right, and be hurting, whatever. So, I think, I feel like I've given very high level answers and I want to tell you more about what that looks like.

But I think what that looks like is making these implicit codes around how we're going to learn together or what behaviors are expected in a space, making them very explicit and making them a focus of discussion and working through a lot of these questions together. Not just name three things that you like about how you're taught, but talking through what does it mean to learn, what does it mean to learn in community, these kind of things.

Barbara: Thank you so much. I mean, that also really resonates with me and something that struck me in your essay, there were many things, but one was around the importance of recognizing the pain that is not seen and the knowledge that is not recognized and embracing the discomfort of listening.

Yeah, it's true that, that, um, things are not new, but the past year and a half has been particularly hard. And I think a lot of people struggle and I think it's also important that it's very differentiated unwellness. I'm very curious to hear from you a bit about how you've been trying to navigate that. And where you have maybe found places of agency, both self-care as well as agency and being able to do things. Do you want to share a bit?

lyla: Yeah, absolutely. I think I've really learned a lot in, in the last year or so about what, like you talk about agency, I've learned a lot about what I can and can't do. And I think that's been really important learning. So, you know, I've learned that, that I can't save the world. You know, and actually I have to focus on, on making change where I am. Like making change in my sphere of influence. That's all I can do, but actually that is also okay, that's enough. And it's kind of something that's within our grasp and it's reachable and it's achievable. And so that makes a lot of sense for me.

And the other really important thing that I learned is that I can't make a difference alone. And I've been working in participatory collaborative work for a really, really long time. But I think what the difference is now is that it's really the first time that I've let myself be open or to be vulnerable enough to accept support from others. So it's like I've spent so many years walking alongside other people and, and, you know, gingering them up and supporting them and, and, you know, making sure that their voice is heard.

And I've often effaced myself and this is the first time really where I've said, you know, please, I need help and I need somebody to walk alongside me. So, I think that that has actually been really support,- you know, important it's that willingness to be vulnerable. And, and I think it's been a really important kind of growth for me.

And I think the other thing that has been so interesting is recognizing what is it that has held me back? What is it that holds us back? You know, and of course there's really overt things, like you're afraid, you're afraid of change, you're afraid of risk. And there's subtle things like, you know, your access to resources, your access to voice, your privilege, right?

You don't want to give up your privilege. And then there are like these hidden things. You know, I mentioned the book earlier, but you know, it talks a lot about kind of respectability politics and the way that we coddle the feelings of the oppressor, and how that's actually just part of the framework of white supremacy, you know, white supremacist thinking and, you know, as well as being just utterly ridiculous, right?

But, so that's just been a really important part of my thinking and saying to myself, well, you know, okay, I don't need to coddle people, you know, and somebody made a really interesting point yesterday about the difference between, you know, the feeling of discomfort, you know, the kind of, what was it? Was it you? You see, I knew I would learn so much from you! [laughs] Please give me the quote properly.

Philippa: [laughs] It's the discomfort of learning versus the discomfort of being oppressed by structure.

Lyla: Exactly, exactly! It so stuck with me. And I think as well, what has come up in the conversation today, you know, this idea of putting ourselves between structures and trying to protect others. And this relentlessness, like this relentless work and kind of how we have to just keep going and  there's something in there about like, you have to be, you have to just keep going and keep going to be worthy. And, and how that is like a capitalist trap, you know? And that actually, if I rest, that is also resistance, and that it's okay for me to rest and to resist in that way. And that has been so important to me.

Barbara: Do you manage to do that?

Lyla: Sometimes. Do I still feel guilty? Yes, sometimes. Sometimes I rest. And it's all about the framing. And, you know, if I tell myself, I'm going to rest now so that I can do whatever later. Then, and it also helps. But, you know, it's still not perfect, right? I can see nods around the room. It's still not perfect. But, you know, we're all doing our best.

Barbara: I mean, I think that is spot on, because I think to a large extent, maybe we know what's needed and what's important, but then actually doing it is another thing. And I think that goes for so many of the approaches we're talking about. Letting go of that kind of perfectionism in trying to do everything right. It's also part of the work  and to allow for things to arise. Because not doing anything is also not an option, and not taking care of yourself is also not an option. So I guess that makes sense. So we have here, you mentioned already your embroidery. and of course people, it's a podcast, so people won't see it. But, I find it very symbolic that you brought it because,-yeah, maybe you can tell a little bit about what you're doing here and why you're doing that.

Lyla: Yeah. So, for me,-so it's cross stitch or tatreez and it's a, you know, traditional culture, embroidery from Palestine. And I started doing it because, and I started last January as well, because it was something to kind of memorialize or commemorate everybody who had been killed. So I'm doing a stitch for everyone who has been killed. So, I'm very, very far from completion. There's 18, 802 stitches there right now. And it's sometimes very helpful. It's sometimes very therapeutic. I sit and I sew and I contemplate and, you know, and then there are times where I can't touch it for weeks at a time because it's so difficult.

It's so emotional. And, you know, and then it sort of lurks in a corner going, why aren't you working on me? [laughs] So it becomes one of those things on my shoulder that I ought to be doing. But generally it is something that is very helpful and contemplative and just something that I can do quietly that, you know, I don't need to make a song and dance about. It's just, you know, I'm sorry that people are dead and at the end of the day that is just a feeling that I felt I needed to express and that’s how I’m doing it.

Barbara: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it speaks to the importance of finding different outlets. We've talked about that also in the past, and finding different ways of expressing ourselves, as well as in being in conversation. So, something that we, I'd like to talk with you,- because you're going to work on a project together. So, maybe you can tell me a little bit about that project.

Philippa: Okay, so the project is one that goes to people working in disability activism and goes to people working in inequality activism, both in Ghana and in Kenya. And it talks to them about how they think about intersectionality, how they think about different identities and how they include them or not in their activism, and what are the barriers to doing so. So, if we think about maybe inequality activism, we might see that disability is a bit missing from the conversation as an axis of inequality., and vice versa right disability is often criticized for not being intersectional enough. And so it's about kind of going into both spaces and looking at how they're understanding each other, how they can maybe come together and how they can build collaboration.

Lyla: It was so exciting to be part of this project because one of the things I saw in the burnout work that I did was that a kind of lack of connection or difficulties trying to connect with other social justice and inequality spaces was a source of burnout for disability activists.

Because there was very much this sense that, you know, we should be part of that and they should be drawing us in and there shouldn't be barriers, you know, “should”, there's a lot of work in that, but you know what I mean, right? That there was just this feeling of it ought to be another way and it isn't, and that was really adding to people's sense of being burned out and being isolated and, you know, I guess not being part of that bigger movement. And so when, when sort of this study came up and then it was like, wow, you know, I know my work was in the UK, but yet there were these sort of cross cutting themes.

And so it's going to be so interesting to really explore and understand whether that's, you know, still the case in Ghana and Kenya, or whether there's something else going on.

Barbara: Thank you so much for that. And maybe one more question on that kind of coming together or the learning. What do you think it's going to be like a crucial ingredient for you to be able to work across, you know, academia and practice, within your own project within your own collaboration?

Lyla: I mean, a bit of humility. That was the first thing that jumped into my head, you know, because  obviously we've got a team and we're, you know, some of us are in the UK and other countries and I'm in Ghana, but I'm not Ghanaian and then we're going to be working with Ghanaians, we're going to be working with Kenyans and, you know, so, there's just going to be a lot of dynamics at play that we're going to want to be alert to and iron out, and we already started having a conversation about what are the values that we want to bring in the way that we work and how is that going to play out in our structure as, as a research team and of course there's an ambition to be pretty flat, but, but there are still sort of specific accountabilities and responsibilities that people will have, right?

Because you can't all do everything, it's impossible. Um, so, you know, it's something that you just have to be alert to, and I think that's the best thing that you can do.

Barbara: Yeah, thanks for that. I think starting with values, it's a really good place. Last question, and this is a question that often comes back and I rephrase it now a little bit because we've talked already a bit about hope and agency, well, more about agency than about hope. But I'm curious to know what you hope to see moving forward

lyla: Look, I think, I think hope keeps me going fundamentally, the people around me there sense that justice is just within reach so close. If we can just, you know, make a tiny bit more effort, we'll get there. And I think really striving to be joyful. I know, I know you often feel like joy isn't something you should have to work at, but I actually believe it is something you have to work at and really striving for that and making, you know, creating beautiful things out of things that are painful, like the sewing, you know, it's so painful, but, but it's also beautiful. And, just sort of saying, well, that's kind of life, really. It's such a cliche, but trying to make beauty out of pain. And just trying to feel that it's okay to be imperfect. It's okay to be spiky, to be me. And, I'm good with that. So, yeah, thank you.

Barbara: Thank you, Lyla.

Philippa: I think, we've spoken about it over these days, like more community, fuzzier edges, more recognition of mess, of fluidity, less hard lines or walls. And also up to being ready to move along with painful differences, thinking through, okay, what are our values? What are our principles? How do we honor them? And by doing so, how do we honor the people that are why we do what we do? So, how do we honor the people that brought us where we are today?

barbara: Thank you so much. Thank you so much both of you for sharing and putting yourself in this vulnerable place. I really learned a lot and I hope we can keep the conversation going. So, thank you.

Thank you for listening to this very special episode, recorded with a room full of wonderful people at the Politics of Inequality conference in London. If you enjoyed the conversation, you can do as a huge favor by spreading the word, subscribe or leave a review of our podcast, so more people can join. If you want to learn more about the work and references that Lyla and Philippa shared, please check out our shownotes. And of course, watch this space for more inspiring episodes coming up. Ciao!